Is this Application Central?

[schielrn]

I like this subject matter, but I tend to lean towards the side of helping people out no matter the problem. Most the time I tend not to get into the big projects because, one, I don't have the time and, two, sometimes I still don't have the knowledge or expertise to attack it efficiently.

I have been on the board almost 2 years now and I had just picked up and used Excel for pretty much the first time maybe 2 weeks before joining the board. I had a very simple question of preventing an error in a macro (the macro was given to me, but they didn't know the answer).

My first 5 posts or so I was in the spoon feeder crowd, just asking any question with the problem at hand, wanting an answer and not caring so much about how it worked, other than it gave me the answer. I guess the difference was I had a minor in computer science in school and when people started showing me VBA approaches I was very interested and wanted to know how things worked.

So I answered every question I could using VBA even if the user asked for sum(A1:A5) I'd still give some sort of VBA approach. I learned a lot from answering questions and from many people telling me my 10 lines of code could be done by doing xyz.

So usually I just hope maybe I am eventually helping someone out there like me. But from the people I know in my office, most don't want to learn this for long term or know how things work, they just want it to work and it to provide the correct results and at times I don't blame most of them and it leaves me with job security.

So without this board, I would be no where near the level of Advanced Beginner that I am today.

 

[snowblizz]

This has to be the most interesting thread yet and I've only looked on the boards actively for a week or so.

Basically I'm writing a PhD thesis on the subject of supporting end-user development so your views are like manna to me.

Please keep 'em coming, and at some point in the future I'd love to be able to pick the brains of the "tribe elders". Figuratively speaking of course. Not implying you are old or anything.

 

[jim may]

Tks snowblizz,

But I (almost) REGRET posting my observations. It seems that 9 out of 10 responsees seem to think I'm some type of Scrooge, when I give away a substantial sum(while learning (the PayBack of course, LOL). I am 100% for "supporting end-user development", just less than excited over "providing free end-user coding" to individuals who have no interest in "development" --, only the answer!!

Teach a man to fish and he will eat forever; Give him a fish and he will soon starve
The 9 respondees seemed to oppose the suggestion inherent in this statement.

My grip is directed at those who "show up at the dinner table nightly - demanding
"what's to eat" " never intending to show the attitude of "Can i sacrifice something in this exchange?"

Oh well, Good luck with your thesis. I guess you don't expect us to write it for you, do you? LOL

Jim

 

[Joe4]

Jim,

I don't understand why you would "regret" posting your opinion. Its your opinion, and you have the right to post it (as long as it is done respectfully), just like others have the right to respond with their opinion. Don't regret it just because everyone doesn't agree with you! Good, respectful debate can be a healthy and productive thing!

FWIW, many of us agree with you, to a certain extent. For years, my signature was "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, feed him for life." Since then, it has been some tips on how people can find their own solutions. I prefer to teach and try to lead someone discovering the solution for themselves (though I am also probably guilty of just posting straight solutions from time-to-time). But as Nate described, it really isn't something you can moderate. Many of the us will simply ignore requests that seem demanding and it is evident that the OP has put no effort in it, though others may choose to answer them.

I have also seen examples where the OP has an urgent deadline and needs a quick solution, and they may not have time to try to understand the whole concept right at that very moment, but is interested in learning it. I have had experiences like that where the OP will come back to me a few days or weeks later and ask me if I could explain it to them. As matter as fact, I have had some of those types of questions myself!

 

[yytsunamiyy]

Well, as an advanced beginner it sure helps me learning to try and help other ppl, so I don't particularly care if I am spoonfeeding or not. However, what seriously pi**es me off is when I actually spend a lot of time on someone else's problem and don't get a word of thanks for it - or even a confirmation that it works, as in NateO's threat..

http://www.mrexcel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1583022

 

[NateO]

However, what seriously pi**es me off is when I actually spend a lot of time on someone else's problem and don't get a word of thanks for it - or even a confirmation that it works, as in NateO's threat..

That person actually did thank me, in an email. She couldn't implement said UDF so I asked her, in the thread, to email me her data.

And I know it works, I both tested it against her data, and I did random spot-checking to tie it out, by hand. As mentioned, I also wanted to write it for my own future use, so I had extra skin in that particular game.

 

[Andrew Fergus]

Hi Jim

I think you'll find 9 out of 10 people agree with your sentiment but not with your conclusion. Unless there is something in it for the helper (i.e. learning, fun, amusement etc) my guess is most people don't want to help a someone that demands a turn-key solution to a problem, in which the problem-owner doesn't want to invest any time. Most respsondents to this thread have said as much.

Your original question was:

Can or should anything be done to CURB this on-going problem?

I think you'll find 9 out of 10 people will elect to do nothing if asked, but they will take a passive approach to excluding / discouraging such posters, exactly as you do, by simply not answering their question(s). Such posters will eventually sort themselves out or go away. I think you will find a number of regulars on this board have their own private list of posters who they ignore. In my experience it gets to the point of not even reading the question. If enough people do this then we have a passive / natural solution to the 'problem'.

So I think you might find most people agree with you, but the way in which it is resolved is achieved passively. However, there are people who are willing to help and good on them. But it's not like you lost a client because someone helped them - if they didn't get free help here they would get it elsewhere.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[snowblizz]

Tks snowblizz,

But I (almost) REGRET posting my observations. It seems that 9 out of 10 responsees seem to think I'm some type of Scrooge, when I give away a substantial sum(while learning (the PayBack of course, LOL). I am 100% for "supporting end-user development", just less than excited over "providing free end-user coding" to individuals who have no interest in "development" --, only the answer!!

Oh well, Good luck with your thesis. I guess you don't expect us to write it for you, do you? LOL

Jim

You bring out sort of the kernel of the question though. Why would a person provide their time and effort "for free"? The Open Source Software community has been studied somewhat in this regard (economist continually surprised why anyone, at all, would do anything for free), Lakhani & von Hippel have written a very interesting paper on support in OSS communities. I've seen the same sort of motivators (and demotivators) at work in other places, e.g. here. But the interesting thing is that ostensibly it would be logical to expect the wish to help to be weaker due to the more pronouced "commercialism" of the Excel community. We have to pay for Excel after all. It is interesting to see that many of the assumptions I had formed does hold true, so far, despite what I was taught in economics.
Being a scrooge isn't always a bad thing mind, my favourite disney character is Uncle Scrooge after all , he has many layers. But that's maybe not pertinent to the topic at hand.
You make a valid point though, as I even argued somewhere, an online help forum could in theory enable someone completely lacking in ability to "develop" Excel applications. I think I used the term "substitute for training", wasn't exactly popular but theoretically possible. Not that I'd recommend it. Finding yourself sitting in a car on the freeway with no idea of how to drive it is a close approxiamtion I think.
I find the idea of "paying your dues in the trenches" sort of fascinating, because that is a feeling I've had myself at times in similar situations. It is something that might be worth pursuing. How much effort is enough basically?
Whether "giving away" help or not is a problem though. I guess that depends. You can always choose not to put in your effort. One of the strengths of on-line communities, you can particiapte to the degree you feel comfortable with. I suppose the "nightmare scenario" would be all the "noob questions" driving way the knowledgeable talent.

You should never regret posting things, unless you just flamed your mother in-law or something. That might be awkward come the next holiday if she's on as well. You never know when you help out a PhD student, solid from me for posting. And I do rather think I'll have to write the thesis myself. It don't think I can find anything with the correct qualifications to do it for me . (Though I did see an advertisemnt for a thesis writing service once. Nearly fell out of my chair at the thought of 3 ex-professors organising a company that did that.)

 

[RoryA]

Hi Jim,
My thinking is pretty much in line with Andrew's.

I'm not a consultant (not yet, anyway) but I too am occasionally irked when people seem to expect an application to be developed for them for free. The key words though, for me anyway, are 'application' and 'expect'.

On the 'application' side, I rarely see (and I spend a fair amount of time in various forums) anything that I would truly consider an application requested, and it's even rarer that it gets a response other than 'you can't really expect us to do that'. For the most part, even the more convoluted questions seem to be beleaguered employees trying to make their lives easier, so if I have the time to help, I will, as I can sympathise! Most of these would never be allocated a budget for a consultant anyway, IMO.

What I do see quite often though is the same people posting questions piecemeal that are clearly parts of a larger application, and this is more of a grey area for me. I don't think they do themselves any favours working this way, as what they usually end up with is an inefficient, cumbersome application with lots of repeated code, due to each piece being developed in isolation. Although I will help out occasionally with these if it's a simple coding error, I will normally just point out that they should hire someone or buy something off the shelf, so that they get proper planning, development and support. (one case I have seen is someone trying to build a network management application in Excel... From the bits I have seen, I don't ever want to see the finished article unless I'm being paid to spend 6 months fixing it!)

The other issue is the 'expectation': there is a world of difference between someone who gives a detailed explanation of exactly what they are trying to achieve overall and then asks for any ideas or assistance people can give, and someone who just says "I need code to do this, this, this, this and this." The latter I almost always ignore unless I'm in a really good mood and have code lying around already, or I'm really bored!

At the end of the day, it does come down to supply and demand and when people are too demanding, others tend to stop supplying!

Just my 2c.

 

[DreamAlchemist]

I am a long time reader though I post rarely (Usually because others have already posted the answer which looks better than the 6 line formula I wrote). I can read and troubleshoot VBA to a degree but have no clue how to write it from scratch. This after taking VB and C++ classes.

I think some of the questions people ask just don't realize how much time and effort it would really take to get something to work. I have seen many people say oh I just need this to do this instead of that. Just change the code to point here. What they don't realize is that code may impact many other areas, and when you try to explain they just hear a cool breeze blowing threw their ears.

I have been grateful to this site and I usually only share it with people that may need help but try things on their own. I do realize though many people just don't have the time to learn vba/formulas and the way they write can usually help figure out if it is in fact they just have too much to do, or just too lazy.